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Re: setting your miter gage to square

#231278 by Hobbyman2 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:29 pm

:)

No correction needed ,, what ya said is spot on ,,,what others have said is spot on,,, :rolleyes: as you can see by the pictures ,,,, they just work out that way!!


If the table wasn't square ,,and you can / should check yours with a accurate square ,,,

it would make it rather difficult for the machinist to set up their jigs to cut those perfect groves with out a square edge some where .

The guy making the castings,,,,,, would be ,,,,casting blind,,, when it comes to determining the amount of materials needed to make the casting it the mold was out of square .




they know down to the ounce how much material they need .

The pictures clearly show 2 tables made years apart and they both worked out perfect and are both true to my blade .
I don't do videos,,,, and I have nothing to gain how you set up your machine .

I am just showing a way to making your set up easier , you should still check the set up no mater what way you chose to do it..

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Hobbyman2 Favorite Quote: "If a man does his best, what else is there?"
- General George S. Patton (1885-1945)

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Re: setting your miter gage to square

#231298 by JPG » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:11 pm

Oh I think your pictures says it all.

A square bearing against irrelevant and non-machined surfaces as being meaningful reveals much about how your mind works.

The glides do indeed affect the resultant front top/bottom angle of the miter gauge face. FWIW that angle is not relevant to 'square cuts' anyway.

To make 'square' crosscuts, the miter gauge direction of travel(controlled by the slots) and the angle the face/workpiece is relative to that direction only matters. Angles in the other two rectilinear axis are irrelevant.

A 'compound' cut is created by tilting the table relative to the blade as the miter gauge angle is set to something other than 'square'. Again only the angle between the bar and the face of the miter gauge will matter.

As for the reference points for machining the miter gauge slots, we simply do not know what/where they are. We cannot assume the outer edges are relevant to where those reference points are although it is possible they are. Realize there is much more machining done in addition to those slots.

The mold may or may not be square, but a molded surface is not as accurate as a machined surface. Consider the castings are aged prior to machining to minimize the effect of drifting dimensions as the casting 'cures'.

A 'perfect' square cut requires squareness in two planes. The other plane that we have NOT been discussing is controlled by the blade to table top surface.

I do not think you have shown 'a way' to set it up easier. I think you have obscured the relevant details.

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╟JPG ╢
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10E(SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange

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Re: setting your miter gage to square

#231303 by Hobbyman2 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:48 pm

:)

I believe we are saying the same thing .

I said if your miter gage isn't square to the table ,,,,and you make a miter cut with the board clamped to the miter gage you just made a compound miter cut!!

Not sure where ,,,or how ,,you could confuse that with the cut being square 90 deg to the blade?

I have been working with machines since the 70's

You are correct though ,,I do not assume any thing ,, I check it !

And I checked it and showed you the results ,, they sort of speak for themselves.


Again if you have any doubts on the squareness of your table ,,,, just check it,,,,,don't take my word for it.,,,,,maybe your table isn't square ,, maybe some one has ground in to the edges with the disc sander,,,, or cut into the thing with the saw blade,,,I see fences all the time with saw marks on them...

However for the life of me I can not imagine a architect drawing ,,,,,or even submitting plans for a a table saw table that would be out of square ?

Or the guy building the table making it out of square thinking they could just wing it by even though the drawings called for it being square.

Or,,,, the folks in quality control at SS not making sure the tables aren't to specs.

Sorry you don't feel that way ,,,, until there is a reason not to trust the folks at quality control .

I have a stand alone saw that is the same way ,,so is dads craftsman table saw , checked the table corners on my SS band saw and they are also square.

Same with the table on the scroll saw.

so i don't mind the debate, if this isn't so or cant be done then the challenge is to post a picture ,,all things being equal,,, proving the pictures wrong?

You are up for a challenge ??

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Hobbyman2 Favorite Quote: "If a man does his best, what else is there?"
- General George S. Patton (1885-1945)

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Re: setting your miter gage to square

#231306 by JPG » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:41 pm

Hobbyman2 wrote::)

I believe we are saying the same thing .

I said if your miter gage isn't square to the table ,,,,and you make a miter cut with the board clamped to the miter gage you just made a compound miter cut!!Simply not true

Not sure where ,,,or how ,,you could confuse that with the cut being square 90 deg to the blade?It will be

I have been working with machines since the 70's

You are correct though ,,I do not assume any thing ,, I check it !

And I checked it and showed you the results ,, they sort of speak for themselves.Actually they did not


Again if you have any doubts on the squareness of your table ,,,, just check it,,,,,don't take my word for it.,,,,,maybe your table isn't square ,, maybe some one has ground in to the edges with the disc sander,,,, or cut into the thing with the saw blade,,,I see fences all the time with saw marks on them...Again you wander from subject to subject and extrapolate the meaning

However for the life of me I can not imagine a architect drawing ,,,,,or even submitting plans for a a table saw table that would be out of square ?Square only needs to be square when it is relevant - there are many buildings that are not square

Or the guy building the table making it out of square thinking they could just wing it by even though the drawings called for it being square.Ridiculous example

Or,,,, the folks in quality control at SS not making sure the tables aren't to specs.Typically they do not check every item

Sorry you don't feel that way ,,,, until there is a reason not to trust the folks at quality control .What 'way' is that?

I have a stand alone saw that is the same way ,,so is dads craftsman table saw , checked the table corners on my SS band saw and they are also square.That is an example of extrapolating

Same with the table on the scroll saw.The scroll saw table is not only not square, is is not even rectilinear

so i don't mind the debate, if this isn't so or cant be done then the challenge is to post a picture ,,all things being equal,,, proving the pictures wrong?A picture of irrelevant subject matter proves nothing

You are up for a challenge ??


Only if you follow the rules of logical thinking.

In any event it does not belong in this thread.

And IF it takes place, ONE point/detail at a time - starting with the non vertical face of the miter gauge causing a compound cut

Actually that should complete the subject. Everything else has been beat to death already.

Oh and keep 'opinion' out of the discussion and presumed analogies as well.

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╔═══╗
╟JPG ╢
╚═══╝

Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10E(SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange

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Re: setting your miter gage to square

#231307 by Hobbyman2 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:28 am

:)

Done,,,you pick the topic and I will try to find it ,,, no opinions just pictures and facts.

You can feel free to pick apart my photos.

My claim is. my table is square and true and by doing this so is my miter gage ,,,, .

My pictures await .


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After reading the SS procedure ,, the end results I say,,, are the same.

Maybe others can chime in to if they try any of this .

I am never too old to learn some thing ,,,,,

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Hobbyman2 Favorite Quote: "If a man does his best, what else is there?"
- General George S. Patton (1885-1945)

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Re: setting your miter gage to square

#231312 by Sazerac81 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:53 am

reible wrote:"I usually use a miter saw to make cuts on stock that size and then true them up on the SS sanding disc , , I went through too many advill doing it the other way.

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Hobbyman2"



Hey Hobbyman,

I do wonder why you made that statement. Why would a 4" wide piece cause headaches for square crosscuts? And then if you are using the same method you tout here for squaring up the miter guage for square cuts, how do you actually use the sanding disc to true up the piece? Wouldn't the cut be just as square as using the sanding disc with the same miter guage? How does using the sanding disc help you true up a piece? Are you using a different reference tool when running the SS sanding disc to guide the material?

I am just curious since it is a bit of a confusing statement because you do have an interesting way of setting the miter guage to square compared to normal operating procedures.

This thread has been of interest since I did want to see how square the 500 table is... pictures to follow in a following post.

Oh, and that plastic speed square, have you referenced it off a more reliable square? Are you sure of it 'squareness'. I ask because I have a plastic gray one that is a little off square.

Cheers,
John

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Re: setting your miter gage to square

#231314 by Sazerac81 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:15 am

Some pics using my woodpecker 851 square on the corners of the 500 table. I did find that it isn't perfectly square if referencing off my woodpecker square.

This side was off by about 0.002"

Image

This side was off by about 0.001"

Image

I did slip in my incra v 120 miter guage to test for squareness on the model 500 table I have. Of note, I used dial indicators to adjust squareness of miter slots to table blade and then miter guage 90 degree to saw blade with confirmation using the woodpecker square on a 520 table. I know that each table requires it's own alignment, but I was curious to say the least to see if there would be any major discrepancy using Hobbyman's method.

Image
Image

It wasn't too bad, interestingly enough, it was off by maybe 0.001" from edge to edge. Hmmm... with that being said, I would still go through normal procedures for alignment. Unless I had the proper equipment to check squareness of the table, I would be wary of using it as a reference.

FYI, this is the same miter guage I used to demonstrate the square cuts in dansmith's thread so it generates square cuts on 4" wide boards without issue.

Cheers,
John

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Re: setting your miter gage to square

#231316 by Hobbyman2 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:58 am

Sazerac81 wrote:
reible wrote:"I usually use a miter saw to make cuts on stock that size and then true them up on the SS sanding disc , , I went through too many advill doing it the other way.

---
Hobbyman2"



Hey Hobbyman,

I do wonder why you made that statement. Why would a 4" wide piece cause headaches for square crosscuts? And then if you are using the same method you tout here for squaring up the miter guage for square cuts, how do you actually use the sanding disc to true up the piece? Wouldn't the cut be just as square as using the sanding disc with the same miter guage? How does using the sanding disc help you true up a piece? Are you using a different reference tool when running the SS sanding disc to guide the material?

I am just curious since it is a bit of a confusing statement because you do have an interesting way of setting the miter guage to square compared to normal operating procedures.

This thread has been of interest since I did want to see how square the 500 table is... pictures to follow in a following post.

Oh, and that plastic speed square, have you referenced it off a more reliable square? Are you sure of it 'squareness'. I ask because I have a plastic gray one that is a little off square.

Cheers,
John



==================

for me,,,,it is easier to use the miter saw ,,quicker to adjust from one angle to another and i feel safer with the shield , especially if the stock is long , for me it is easier to control the stock , the SS is fine for making those cuts if thats what ya want to use.,, Its personal preference..

I have checked the square , ,the pictures show it is on ,,, I went through a couple over the years that were not .
Last edited by Hobbyman2 on Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Hobbyman2 Favorite Quote: "If a man does his best, what else is there?"
- General George S. Patton (1885-1945)

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Re: setting your miter gage to square

#231318 by Hobbyman2 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:06 am

Also nice job on checking things out.

You mentioned that each table top would differ?

Obviously I would have to change carriages to take the pictures of the 500 table to the blade ,,,

I align both my tables the same and oddly enough my miter gage still works as I showed in the pictures .
Will it work for every one ,,in theory it should ,,,but again ,, check it first.

I agree with you guys you should all ways double check every thing .

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Hobbyman2 Favorite Quote: "If a man does his best, what else is there?"
- General George S. Patton (1885-1945)

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Re: setting your miter gage to square

#231326 by Hobbyman2 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:31 am

So here is the answer to the doubt you have about the table being square,,,,once you have checked the slots and the blade as you just did ,,,if you use the miter bar against the table edge the miter gage will tell you if the table is as square and in the same alignment as the miter slots right?

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Hobbyman2 Favorite Quote: "If a man does his best, what else is there?"
- General George S. Patton (1885-1945)

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