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The Missing Mark 5 Serial Numbers

#254511 by chapmanruss » Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:47 pm

I have been working on estimating the missing Mark 5 Serial Numbers. These include 1962 to the end of production for the Mark 5 in 1964. These Serial Number dates of production are based on the Shopsmith sales by year. Hopefully they are close. The 1973 through 1977 Serial Numbers are simply averaging the number of units made for the time period. They will be less accurate but an approximate for those years.
Mark V Serial Numbers - The Lost Numbers.pdf
updated version
(99.56 KiB) Downloaded 676 times
EDIT: above is the updated version.

JPG,
This would have your Goldie being made in October of 1962. Is that close?

For those who may not have it, below is the Mark 5 & Mark V Serial Number chart Shopsmith had on this site with estimated numbers for the missing months I did some time ago.
Mark V Serial Numbers.pdf
(121.78 KiB) Downloaded 694 times
Last edited by chapmanruss on Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Russ

Mark V 520 S/N 09-11-01 completely upgraded to Mark 7, with all SPT's & more.
Model 10ER S/N R64000 first one I restored on bench w/ Shopsmith metal ends & retractable casters. Has Speed Changer, Model 4E Jointer, Jig Saw with lamp, a complete set of original accessories & much more.
Model 10E S/N 1077 oldest one I have restored. On bench w/ Shopsmith metal ends & retractable casters.

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Re: The Missing Mark 5 Serial Numbers

#254512 by JPG » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:16 pm

IIRC, I purchased it in the spring of 63.

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╟JPG ╢
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Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10E(SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange

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Re: The Missing Mark 5 Serial Numbers

#254535 by chapmanruss » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:03 pm

JPG,
Thanks for responding. It looks like my estimations are not to far off. Using sales information to try to get close to manufacture dates was not going to be accurate but at least close. With your purchase time I could be off about three months or so. Hard to say for sure since I do not know how long before you purchased it that it was made. That time could be a month or several months for any given Mark 5.

I estimated the last Serial Number for the Mark 5 made by Magna American Corporation to be 382425. If anyone has a Mark 5 from the 1960's with a higher number please let me know. It could help make this list more accurate.

Looking at the original list put out by Shopsmith it does not have any Serial Numbers listed before April of 1954 which is 263051. We do not know how many Mark 5 tools were made before that date. I know of no record stating the starting Serial Number for the Mark 5 by Magna Engineering Corporation. The lowest Serial Number I have seen is 260407. That Mark 5 could have been made in February or the very beginning of March (based on the number of units made in April and May).

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Russ

Mark V 520 S/N 09-11-01 completely upgraded to Mark 7, with all SPT's & more.
Model 10ER S/N R64000 first one I restored on bench w/ Shopsmith metal ends & retractable casters. Has Speed Changer, Model 4E Jointer, Jig Saw with lamp, a complete set of original accessories & much more.
Model 10E S/N 1077 oldest one I have restored. On bench w/ Shopsmith metal ends & retractable casters.

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Re: The Missing Mark 5 Serial Numbers

#255051 by chapmanruss » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:55 pm

I have updated the lost serial numbers list. With the information Everett has provided. I changed the starting date of the Mark 5 production by Shopsmith Inc. to March 20, 1973 as found in Everett's research. Remember this is still an estimate of when these units were made and could vary by several months. As before the 1973 through 1977 Serial Numbers are simply averaging the number of units made for the time period.
Mark V Serial Numbers - The Lost Numbers.pdf
(99.56 KiB) Downloaded 686 times

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Russ

Mark V 520 S/N 09-11-01 completely upgraded to Mark 7, with all SPT's & more.
Model 10ER S/N R64000 first one I restored on bench w/ Shopsmith metal ends & retractable casters. Has Speed Changer, Model 4E Jointer, Jig Saw with lamp, a complete set of original accessories & much more.
Model 10E S/N 1077 oldest one I have restored. On bench w/ Shopsmith metal ends & retractable casters.

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Re: The Missing Mark 5 Serial Numbers

#255060 by everettdavis » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:48 am

Russ,

Actually we do have an accounting for machines produced 1953-1954, just not serial numbers. It came from John R. Folkerth's 1972 business plan.

Actually we have production numbers for calendar years 1953 - 1965 for the Mark 5. Not specific serial numbers by month, but total machines sold. In the later years they were building to fill orders, not in anticipation of orders.

From a Post I wrote titled: More Shopsmith History and some more questions.... I may be able to fill in some information.

Within the thread I had the production numbers for the 1972 business plan that John R. Folkerth and his backers submitted in procuring financing for Shopsmith Inc. to resurrect the company and production of equipment. viewtopic.php?p=249505#p249505

The business plan was very specific in numbers of machines produced in each year beginning 1949. 1947-1948 numbers were not produced suggesting the MAGNA production records prior to Yuba’s ownership were not in their possession, thus not included in the business plan.

We still do not know officially the beginning of the fiscal year for Magna or Yuba. We presume Jan 1 – Dec 31.

That said, here are those numbers which includes all the missing years’ production numbers through the production years in question. If you adapt the interpolation of serial number ranges, biasing them to the machines sold, it may be helpful.

See attached business plan numbers, and a comparison with your missing numbers work, which is excellent by the way.

I realize the number of units produced in a time period will vary some from units sold (1972 business plan numbers), especially when they were building in anticipation of orders in early years, but as sales slowed, production was to fill orders in later years, as they were ramping up Mark VII sales. The Mark 2 numbers were not included in anything I found, but that too had much to do with declining Mark 5 production numbers as Montgomery Ward had the cheaper Mark 2 made for them primarily, even though Magna American sold it too.

The business plan called it a Mark V, but the production was Mark 5 for many years.

Kindest Regards,

Everett

Business Plan 1972 John R. Folkerth.png
Business Plan 1972 John R. Folkerth.png (79.83 KiB) Viewed 10909 times

The lost numbers revised for your consideration.png
The lost numbers revised for your consideration.png (103.3 KiB) Viewed 10909 times

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Re: The Missing Mark 5 Serial Numbers

#255061 by BuckeyeDennis » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:10 am

Those are some very interesting sales numbers, Everett. In your research, have you discovered the cause(s) of the unit-sales decline that started around 1958? I’m guessing market saturation and/or loss of market share to radial arm saws, but that’s pure speculation on my part.

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Re: The Missing Mark 5 Serial Numbers

#255064 by everettdavis » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:46 am

BuckeyeDennis wrote:Those are some very interesting sales numbers, Everett. In your research, have you discovered the cause(s) of the unit-sales decline that started around 1958? I’m guessing market saturation and/or loss of market share to radial arm saws, but that’s pure speculation on my part.


The original patents on the Shopsmith Mark V began to expire in the mid 1970's just after John Folkerth resurrected the company from the shuttered factory in Raymond, Mississippi.

By the early 1980's several cheaper clones were sold in the US. Most were being made in Taiwan, Total Shop being one of the more aggressively advertised.

Montgomery Ward had Magna American build the Mark 2 which was a low cost alternative design that just wasn't up to the quality of the Mark 5. Montgomery Ward was their largest retailer, and when they stopped ordering the Mark 5 for their own Mark 2 incarnation of a multi-purpose machine, sales for Mark 5 declined for both reasons, clone competition, and a national chain moving to a cheaper product.

Magna American, adjusting from the changes in market for Mark 5, designed and released the Mark VII with seven functions

Raymond DeWalt in 1922 introduced the Radial Arm Saw. Montgomery Ward and Sears sold their versions, and Sears’s stores and catalogs sold the 8”, 9” and 10" RAS saws from 1958 through 1992.

The 10” RAS had become a de-facto standard for contractors and home builders.

The price point was low enough it competed in that Shopsmith space too. The 5/8” arbor was wildly popular and blades for Shopsmith were a non-standard item in many areas.

The Recall had a disastrous effect on RAS sales and marked the beginning of the end of it's dominance in that space.

The power miter saw hit in the 1970's and it had more effect on the RAS market than the Shopsmith market, but it too had an effect.

All those issues were the reason for sales declines of Mark 5 model at that time.

Everett

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Re: The Missing Mark 5 Serial Numbers

#255069 by chapmanruss » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:18 pm

Good morning Everett,

I used the business plan chart for the basis of my estimates for the 1962 to 1964 serial numbers. Since the chart lists fiscal year as 1953-1954, as an example, I do not believe their fiscal year would be January to December but looked at it as July to June. It is hard to truly estimate serial numbers by month of manufacture from an annual sales chart. The fact that they started out with more orders than machines built in early 1954 followed by having machines ready to sell and back to making them after ordered only adds to the difficulty. I do consider this a work in progress and will update it as more information becomes available. I plan to take another look at the early sales numbers (1954 to 1961) to compare how they look against the serial numbers by month. I may get some insight there as to the change from built to sell to build for orders. That may get the production month of JPG's Goldie closer to his purchase. Right now I have it about six months apart. JPG if you can recall, did you order it and have to wait for it to be delivered or did you purchase it right from the store? Knowing that will help correctly adjust the serial number dates. If anyone else has a Goldie Mark 5 and knows the purchase and/or delivery date that would be helpful too.

Everett, I did not know that Magna American made the Mark 2. I thought it was out of production before they took over the tool line from Yuba. It is interesting that the Mark 2 could have been the start of the demise of the Mark 5. The Mark VII certainly helped end it.

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Russ

Mark V 520 S/N 09-11-01 completely upgraded to Mark 7, with all SPT's & more.
Model 10ER S/N R64000 first one I restored on bench w/ Shopsmith metal ends & retractable casters. Has Speed Changer, Model 4E Jointer, Jig Saw with lamp, a complete set of original accessories & much more.
Model 10E S/N 1077 oldest one I have restored. On bench w/ Shopsmith metal ends & retractable casters.

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Re: The Missing Mark 5 Serial Numbers

#255073 by JPG » Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:20 pm

My Goldie was delivered within a couple of weeks of purchasing it at MW store.

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╔═══╗
╟JPG ╢
╚═══╝

Goldie(Bought New SN 377425)/4" jointer/6" beltsander/12" planer/stripsander/bandsaw/powerstation /Scroll saw/Jig saw /Craftsman 10" ras/Craftsman 6" thicknessplaner/ Dayton10"tablesaw(restoredfromneighborstrashpile)/ Mark VII restoration in 'progress'/ 10E(SN E3779) restoration in progress, a 510 on the back burner and a growing pile of items to be eventually returned to useful life. - aka Red Grange

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Re: The Missing Mark 5 Serial Numbers

#255082 by chapmanruss » Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:39 pm

From JPG
My Goldie was delivered within a couple of weeks of purchasing it at MW store.
With that information his Goldie should have been made very close to the order date and not six months apart.
Thanks for the information JPG

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Russ

Mark V 520 S/N 09-11-01 completely upgraded to Mark 7, with all SPT's & more.
Model 10ER S/N R64000 first one I restored on bench w/ Shopsmith metal ends & retractable casters. Has Speed Changer, Model 4E Jointer, Jig Saw with lamp, a complete set of original accessories & much more.
Model 10E S/N 1077 oldest one I have restored. On bench w/ Shopsmith metal ends & retractable casters.

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