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26 posts 1 2 3

Complete alignment

#19431 by shydragon » Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:34 am

Last week, I attempted to rip a couple of 2x4's, with terrible results. Since, my shopsmith had been in storage for 14 years, I've been going through all the maintenance, cleaning, checked some basic alignment. So, I decided to go through a complete alignment starting at page one of the owners manual.

I attempted to use the dial indicator, finally ended up using the hex key in the miter guage. It seemed like the smallest pressure would move the table. Anyway, after going through the whole process, the problem ended up being the riving knife. About 3/16" to the right of the blade. That explains why ripping the 2x4's didn't come out so well.

But, after noticing that just a light pressure applied to the side of the table and seeing how easy it was to get the table to flex really bothered me. So, I have to ask myself, "can you really make accurate cuts witht he shopsmith"?

Now don't get me wrong, I love my shopsmith, I've just spent over 4 grand on it, but the question is still lurking in my mind.

I've been visiting other woodworking forums, and people are always showing the item they have made. Some of these are just absolutely gorgeous, emaculate joints, etc. All, I have seen in this forum are jigs, table extensions, etc for the shopsmith, and these are extremely valuable photos.

Show me the actual projects you have made, using the shopsmith.

---

Pat

Oregon

1992 SS 510, 11" Bandsaw on power station, 4" jointer, Pro Planer, Incra Miter 2000, Incra Ultimate Fence Router Pkg, Grizzly 6" Parallelogram Jointer.

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#19432 by charlese » Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:29 am

I really have no answer for your unstable table unless your trunion bolts have not been tightened or perhaps your carriage is not secure. I've not had such a problem with my Mark V 510. Don't get too negative! The folks on this forum are very willing to help you to end your frustrations and get confident with your machine.

Since you asked - here are 5 projects. The forum will only allow 5 photos with a post. (you can also click on my avatar)

There are a lot more photos of really pretty items folks have made. Maybe some of the folks will give you a link to them.

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---

Octogenarian's have an earned right to be a curmudgeon.
Chuck in Lancaster, CA

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#19433 by nuhobby » Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:37 am

shydragon,

I can't top Chuck's project pictures! I post some (generally smaller) projects sometimes.

I can comment on Alignment. I think each Mark V user will have some learning curve. Last year I had apparently knocked my table out of alignment, probably when I put a *huge* mass of 2x4's glued together on it, in drill press mode with support legs. That's when I went for my own complete alignment.

So far no changes! It works great. I'm amazed how accurate the angle verniers read, too. But, having aligned the whole thing, I now have a sensitivity to how things work, and I take some precautions. For instance when I slide the worktable/carriage across the way-tubes, I try to always grab by the bottom carriage, or by a central part of the worktable -- not the very front edge of the table. Little tips like this become part of the owner experience and after a few repetitions are habitual. Nick's video tips are invaluable as well.

Enjoy,

---

Chris

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#19437 by shydragon » Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:34 am

Wow, now that's what I'm talking about. Beautiful furniture, Charlese.

The only reason, I asked the question is, when I placed the dial indicator in the slot and applied a slight pressure to make sure the indicator was up against the vertical surface of the slot, I noticed a lot of variation. After seeing that, just to see what would happen, (table bolts had not been loosened, yet, carriage locked, quill locked) I applied slight sideward pressure with just my thumb only and saw the variation in movement. So, I thought to myself, "If I can move it just with thumb pressure, what happens when I push a piece of wood through the blade.

But, anyway, seeing Charlese furniture, really makes me feel better. I have everything lined up with just a few thousands variations. It took (4) tries getting the fence to just under .005", I did use the dial indicator for that adjustment).

I'm almost ready to start cutting wood. The miter 2000 came in this week along with the final pieces of the TSIII ultra router fence system. Thought, I would set the miter 2000 up today, and play with that for a while before setting up the TSIII

Thanks for the comments and photos

---

Pat

Oregon

1992 SS 510, 11" Bandsaw on power station, 4" jointer, Pro Planer, Incra Miter 2000, Incra Ultimate Fence Router Pkg, Grizzly 6" Parallelogram Jointer.

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#19438 by Gampa » Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:36 am

I have also seen what you are talking about when only using the main table. A little pressure and the table moves two or three thousandths. By using the extension table with the the connecting tubes it stabilizes the main table making those accurate cuts possible that you see on the work people are showing.

---

Enjoy a little sawdust therapy

Walt
520, Joiner, band saw, Planer, Dust Collector, 6: Belt Sander, OPR, Scroll Saw

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#19439 by shydragon » Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:54 am

Gampa, I had thought of that, by using the poles and extension table, it would be much more stable. In fact with that in mind, I bought a second extension table to put on the other end. But, when using the second table, I would not beable to use the jointer.

Charlese, I've always wanted to build one of those butler tables. I was studying your sofa table. Beautiful joinery on the top with the lighter panel and darker framing.

---

Pat

Oregon

1992 SS 510, 11" Bandsaw on power station, 4" jointer, Pro Planer, Incra Miter 2000, Incra Ultimate Fence Router Pkg, Grizzly 6" Parallelogram Jointer.

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#19442 by Ed in Tampa » Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:13 pm

shydragon wrote:Last week, I attempted to rip a couple of 2x4's, with terrible results. Since, my shopsmith had been in storage for 14 years, I've been going through all the maintenance, cleaning, checked some basic alignment. So, I decided to go through a complete alignment starting at page one of the owners manual.

I attempted to use the dial indicator, finally ended up using the hex key in the miter guage. It seemed like the smallest pressure would move the table. Anyway, after going through the whole process, the problem ended up being the riving knife. About 3/16" to the right of the blade. That explains why ripping the 2x4's didn't come out so well.

But, after noticing that just a light pressure applied to the side of the table and seeing how easy it was to get the table to flex really bothered me. So, I have to ask myself, "can you really make accurate cuts witht he shopsmith"?

Now don't get me wrong, I love my shopsmith, I've just spent over 4 grand on it, but the question is still lurking in my mind.

I've been visiting other woodworking forums, and people are always showing the item they have made. Some of these are just absolutely gorgeous, emaculate joints, etc. All, I have seen in this forum are jigs, table extensions, etc for the shopsmith, and these are extremely valuable photos.

Show me the actual projects you have made, using the shopsmith.



Shy
I can’t show you what I built but I will try to address your concerns. First what model Shopsmith Mark 5 do you have? On the 510/520 models you can use fence connector tubes between the Aux table and main table and lock the main table dead solid. By doing this you get a four point contact for a very solid table.

Let me also say there has been a whole lot of discussion on various woodworking forums about precision down to .001" and etc. using digital gauges and instruments built for metal working. While that might sound great I'm convinced it becomes more a problem that is worth. I have made myself totally crazy trying to achieve such alignment and frankly I'm convinced the old alignment procedures given with the Shopsmith such as using the sanding disk and looking for slivers of light and using the hex wrench in the miter gauge to align the table parallel to the blade/sanding disk is the most useful and provides the needed accuracy on the SS to do fine woodworking.

I don’t think I ever built something on my Shopsmith that was flawed because of an inaccuracy within the Shopsmith. Any flaw found was always traced back to user error.

One thing I found is to use the same measuring tools for both the setting up the alignment and laying out the project. If you use a try square in the alignment use that same try square to lay out your project. If you used a certain tape measure use it all through the project. I have introduced flaws in my projects by using different tools to align my Shopsmith and to layout my project.

I hope this helps somewhat. As soon as I can con my grandkids out their digital camera I will post some pictures of my projects.
Ed

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#19444 by Gampa » Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:09 pm

Securing it to the opposite end of where you put the joiner is enough to stabilize.

---

Enjoy a little sawdust therapy



Walt

520, Joiner, band saw, Planer, Dust Collector, 6: Belt Sander, OPR, Scroll Saw

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Soapbox

#19445 by charlese » Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:16 pm

I'm just about to jump up on my soapbox! Was cleaning the shop today and ran across it sitting in a corner - full of scrap wood.

One of the things I did (while in the shop) was to push sideways on the main table while measuring the deflection with the dial indicator against a saw blade. I was able to deflect the main table .005" with about 10 to 15 lbs force. I was also able to twist the table about the same amount using a little more force. I was very surprised to find that adding the extension table to the mix did not change the deflection much. The real question is - So What! (More on this later).

Next I tried the nickel test and to my surprise it stood on end through two full speed changes, from fast to slow to fast to slow. What does this mean? I don't know! But every time I started the SS in slow and moved it up to speed E - the nickel fell over. The nickel did better if I started in fast. Oh yeah! - The nickel would not stand if I had my 10 yr old combination blade on, but worked every time with the new thin kerf blades on the machine. If you try this, don't put the nickle in front of the upper saw guard. The wind from the blade will blow it over.

Then, switching back to the old 1/8" combo blade, I measured using the dial indicator, from the left miter slot to the side of each tooth through two rotations. This is the same blade I have never had sharpened, but scraped with a pocket knife many times, and honed with a diamond pad. There is a difference of .004" sideways position between all of the teeth. What does this mean? It means that my saw kerfs with this blade will be a bit wider than 1/8". Does that matter? Not much at all! Because I am concerned with only one side of the kerf. That side will maybe be .002" smaller than I had thought. (Today I ran a test kerf into a board, using that blade, and inserted my brass 1/8" set-up bar. There was only a very slight space between one side of the kerf and the bar.)

Now to get on with the soapbox. My fellow SS'ers and I sometimes fall victim of the other manufacturer's hype, magazine reviews and un-conventional wisdom of other woodworkers. -- Myths and bragging abound!!!

Let's think about a blade being off by .004" - Since when sawing, I only am really concerned with one side of the saw kerf - that means I will probably have a cut that is .002" shorter than I thought. This is the width of a small human hair. If one were to pluck a hair or 10 from his head and lay on the edge of a jointed board - then lay another jointed edge on top - would you be able to notice the space caused by the hair(s)? No!

I believe the same thing is true about the table deflection when pushed from the side. When sawing, the table is never pushed from the side, nor twisted on it's support legs. Any deflection caused by such sideways motion will be negligible for two reasons. First there is no conceivable reason to cause these forces while sawing. Second, if there were such forces present they would be negligible for the reasons noted below (in the off parallel discussion) and the forces would be very small compared to the 10 to 15 lbs I used above.

Now let's consider that a rip fence is .003" off parallel with the blade. -- Does that matter? Maybe yes, if it will cause a bind, but such a bind (of <.003") will not be noticeable until you look at the saw marks on the cut edge. The resulting cut will (could) be off by a distance that is less than the total deflection of the fence. I can relate this to edge routing. In edge routing the fence does not have to be perpendicular to the table edges. The fence sets the cutting depth right at the bit. A table saw, with the fence not perfectly aligned with the blade will do the same thing! It would be better if such a mis-alignment were to be closer at the front of the blade rather than the rear, as the final cut will be on the down stroke of the blade and binding will not happen if this is the case.

O.K. -- Our situation is such that our blade has slightly offset teeth, and the fence is slightly out of parallel with the blade. How much does this matter? It may, and I emphasize MAY, matter if the woodworker is going to use the ripped,sawn piece directly into a project. This would most likely be due to the saw marks rather than the size of the piece. But how many times does that happen? Most, if not all of the workpieces I have sawn are re-worked by jointing,sanding or planing after sawn. It is incumbent on us to saw as accurately as possible, but how are the sawn faces used? Usually they are used to re-work to more precise size.

So what is all the concern over measurements in the thousandths of inches when dealing with a table saw? I really don't know? Except various manufacturers try very hard to convince us all that such accuracy with the table saw is necessary or you won't be able to make anything worthwhile. I say BUNK!!

[SIZE="4"]Space for a warning/disclaimer here:[/SIZE]
This post is talking about and ONLY about measurement in thousandths of inches. If any mis alignment is larger than prescribed by Shopsmith, CAUTION - it could be dangerous!

Now, before jumping down I must say that the repeatability offered by Incra and other manufacturers is very valuable. It is just the repeatability to .001" that bother me. Is your saw blade that accurate? Is the wood used by itself that capable of returning that kind of accuracy? I think not.

---

Octogenarian's have an earned right to be a curmudgeon.

Chuck in Lancaster, CA

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what charlese said

#19446 by wgander » Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:21 pm

Amen. (Additional characters to satisfy editing requirement.)

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