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Crafter's Station - A Learning Experience

#19973 by dusty » Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:41 pm

charlese wrote:Is it possible that after a great number of reversed polarities, the motor wiring was not ample in size, connections, windings to take the strain? Is there something about changes in magnetic fields that could, over a period of time, cause a resistance (ohms) to develop?


Over time but not as a function of time, a fully functional unit could certainly have deteriorated to the point where it would not work properly.

It sounds as though this happened to yours.

When I compare my experience with the Power Station to your experience with the Crafter's Station - the two seem to be completely different. My Power Station is as old as your CS would have been today and my Power Station is running fine. Knock on wood...knock, knock.

One question that your comments bring to mind....When you needed to reverse direction, were you faithful in turning off one function before you turned on the other.

Example: If you were using the Table Saw and then wanted to use the Sanding Disc, did you turn off the saw and let the blade come to a stop before you turned back on the sanding station (running in reverse direction).

If you did not, opposing magnetic fields would be developed (momentarily) and the start current being drawn would be significantly greater than normal. Over time, with repeated occurrences, this might have resulted in a deterioration that you could no longer accept.

I read your posts earlier, much earlier, regarding your past experience with the Crafter's Station. I then read the CS Manual to see if there is a Note, Caution or Warning that would advise an operator to let the machine come to a complete stop before changing direction. THERE IS NONE.

I would still like to get my hands on your defective motors. It would facilitate an interesting study.

Incidently, I went to a very reputable motor shop here in Tucson, today, to get the questionable motor checked. It is definitely bad; shorted windings. Cost to rewind - >$350; of course this would include new bearings.

I was ready to buy a new motor ($210.00 plus shipping), then and there. If I had it would have been a Baldor. I did not because the people there (there were three) all advised me to purchase an OEM (direct from Shopsmith). Who was I to argue with someone who was advising me to go purchase from someone else?

I am now waiting on an order from Shopsmith. I have just blown my budget for woodworking equipment and repairs. It will be another long dry spell. SWMBO just gritted her teeth and left the room when I told her what this was going to cost. But the taxes are all paid.:rolleyes:

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"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.

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#19998 by cowboyplus » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:15 pm

I am also sure the relay is not the culprit, that's why I wanted to know the wiring connections on the motor.

I am thinking there are 6 wires connected to the motor.

The line (black & white ??) are connected to the red and blue (at any rate the run winding, and the orange & another color (the start winding).

Either the centrifical switch is stuck/welded closed or the run and start windings are reversed (causing the centrifical switch to de-energize the run winding) [not likely unless someone had the motor and terminal block apart and got wires mixed up inside].

If you can see the centrifical switch it is in series with the start winding (which use the cross over jumpers for reversal).

If the start winding is not dis-engaged shortly after rotation begins the breaker will trip because of running near locked rotor amps.

To test the centrifical switch operation, connect a regular light switch in series with the start winding (orange) and as soon as it begins to rotate, switch it off and the motor should then come up to speed.

Without a capacitor the start winding only provides initial rotation and is essential it is de-energized as soon as rotation has been determined. (You can start a motor by hand rotating the shaft and energizing the run winding only.)

Swaping it's (start winding) leads in relation to the supply/run starts rotation in the opposite direction.
.

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Crafter's Station

#20002 by BigSky » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:07 pm

cowboy;

Are you saying that the start winding (the orange wire) can be disconnected as soon as the armature begins to rotate and that the motor should continue to run.....and.....that what is actually being done is what the centrifical switch would do under normal circumstances???

If the black and white (Line 1 and Line 2) wires are connected to the motor without connecting the others nothing should happen....and that the rotor could then be spun by hand to start the motor?

Is this what would happen if the start winding was open?

When the centrifical switch opens, does it also disconnect the start windings?

It seems like maybe you should start up a class in ac motor theory.

---

MarkFive510

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#20003 by cowboyplus » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:30 pm

quote=markfive510:

cowboy;

Are you saying that the start winding (the orange wire) can be disconnected as soon as the armature begins to rotate and that the motor should continue to run.....and.....that what is actually being done is what the centrifical switch would do under normal circumstances??? Yes

If the black and white (Line 1 and Line 2) wires are connected to the motor without connecting the others nothing should happen....and that the rotor could then be spun by hand to start the motor? Yes, It will hum and draw enough current to trip the overload, without rotation. I suggest you start manual rotation before energizing. Also this is for diagnosing only without any belts, etc. connected that might cause a danger to your hand. An empty shaft will be safe.

Is this what would happen if the start winding was open? Yes

When the centrifical switch opens, does it also disconnect the start windings? Yes, that is the only thing it does.

It seems like maybe you should start up a class in ac motor theory.
Another thread also contains some pointers.

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#20006 by charlese » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:32 pm

Dusty - Oh Yeah! There was a printed warning in the CS instructions about only throwing one switch at a time. I obeyed that warning religiously! In fact, as I remember, the saw was always removed before using a SPT.
Never did use the sanding disk or drums in both directions. Didn't think of it! Most of the time I used the belt sander.

Cowboy's post again reminds me that it was much more effective to spin a hub before throwing the reverse switch.

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Octogenarian's have an earned right to be a curmudgeon.
Chuck in Lancaster, CA

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#20008 by ldh » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:45 pm

I was ready to buy a new motor ($210.00 plus shipping), then and there. If I had it would have been a Baldor. I did not because the people there (there were three) all advised me to purchase an OEM (direct from Shopsmith). Who was I to argue with someone who was advising me to go purchase from someone else?

I am now waiting on an order from Shopsmith. I have just blown my budget for woodworking equipment and repairs. It will be another long dry spell. SWMBO just gritted her teeth and left the room when I told her what this was going to cost. But the taxes are all paid.
__________________

Dusty,
I am curious as to what would be the problem in using the Baldor motor considering the problems you have encountered with the SS motor. I have reversing motors on two shapers and have never had any problem with them.
I really don't see much difference in use.
ldh

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#20032 by beeg » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:22 pm

ldh wrote:I have reversing motors on two shapers and have never had any problem with them.
I really don't see much difference in use.
ldh



[color="RoyalBlue"]So in using the shaper, if you take off to much. You reverse the motor and it adds it back on?:D :confused:[/color]

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SS 500(09/1980), DC3300, jointer, bandsaw, belt sander, Strip Sander, drum sanders,molder, dado, biscuit joiner, universal lathe tool rest, Oneway talon chuck, router bits & chucks and a De Walt 735 planer,a #5,#6, block planes. ALL in a 100 square foot shop.
.
.

Bob

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#20041 by johnm » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:04 pm

Have you checked winding continuity with an ohm-meter just to make sure that the start winding is functional? If it has opened up, then you won't develop any starting torque as has been mentioned. I'm sort of surprised that this isn't a capacitor-start motor, since those will develop a much higher starting torque than a split-phase motor (which what this sounds like). Poor starting torque is evidence of a bad (probably shorted) capacitor.

This motor might have an embedded thermal protection device (Klixon) which may have opened up and failed. They are usually buried in the end turns of the motor.

If you have one of these motors running and suddenly change the switch to reverse direction, you'll get a big spike in the input current and probably pop your circuit breaker (or the Klixon).

Good hunting!

---

John Mallick
Dripping Springs, TX

Beginning Woodworker
Passable Barbecue'er

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Reversible Tool Motor

#20043 by dusty » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:18 pm

Some of our equipment is equipped with reversible ac motors.

Is there a standard that says an ac motor's normal direction of rotation is CW and the reversed direction CCW?......or is it visa versa?:confused:

What direction does the Shopsmith Mark V motor turn? It depends on where you are standing, doesn't it? If you are looking at the business end of the arbor shaft (where you would mount the saw arbor) - the shaft (thus the saw blade) is turning CCW.:confused:

If I go stand on the other end of the Shopsmith and look at the blade from the left end of the headstock, the blade is turning CW.

Does the Shopsmith headstock run in the forward direction or does it run in the reverse direction?:confused:

---

"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.

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#20044 by ldh » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:00 pm

beeg wrote:[color="RoyalBlue"]So in using the shaper, if you take off to much. You reverse the motor and it adds it back on?:D :confused:[/color]


You must change the hose to the exhaust port on the shop-vac when reversing the shaper motor in order to add back what you took off in one direction or the other. Works great with a little assist from some ca glue.
ldh

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