My guess is that Mr Phyfe had nary a multipurpose tool in his collection. And I'll bet that jointer plane was hand crafted by an artisan whose skill was equal to good ole Duncans'. Looks like that shadow just got a bit larger.Nick wrote:I once had the pleasure of inspecting Duncan Phyfe's tool box at the New York Historical Society in New York. While I didn't get to hold any of the original tools, I would guess that the heaviest among them was a wooden jointer plane that certainly weighed no more than 20 pounds. My Shopsmith weighs about 200 pounds -- more when the switch is on and the wires are full of electrons. That, according to todays' myth-conceptions, makes me -- makes us all -- ten times the craftsmen that Duncan Phyfe could ever hope to be.
Thank gawd. I was getting awfully tired of feeling like I was always in his shadow.
How can we help Shopsmith?
Moderators: HopefulSSer, admin
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RobertTaylor
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 560
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:28 am
- Location: North Canton, Ohio
I think Sears still does a pretty good job (their parts break downs and parts availability is better then most others
tim, that used to be true. however it seems that most stuff anymore from sears is made in china and just simply replaced instead of being repaired. they shut down their sevice center in north canton, ohio and laid off those employees. even online try buying parts for a treadmill or table saw or any other shop tool. while they list the parts, if it is more than a few years old the only parts available seem to be standard harware parts like nuts and bolts. seems like they buy a bunch of tools and spare parts (enough for some warranty work) for a few years and when they are gone, they are gone. they don't have parts to complete returned tools to recondition them like they used to. they just sell them "as is" at sears liquidation.com.
tim, that used to be true. however it seems that most stuff anymore from sears is made in china and just simply replaced instead of being repaired. they shut down their sevice center in north canton, ohio and laid off those employees. even online try buying parts for a treadmill or table saw or any other shop tool. while they list the parts, if it is more than a few years old the only parts available seem to be standard harware parts like nuts and bolts. seems like they buy a bunch of tools and spare parts (enough for some warranty work) for a few years and when they are gone, they are gone. they don't have parts to complete returned tools to recondition them like they used to. they just sell them "as is" at sears liquidation.com.
Bob
1954 greenie, 1963 anniversary edition now a mini,
1984 500, 1985 510, 1987 510, pro-planer, bandsaw, dust collector
1954 greenie, 1963 anniversary edition now a mini,
1984 500, 1985 510, 1987 510, pro-planer, bandsaw, dust collector
"My guess is that Mr Phyfe had nary a multipurpose tool in his collection."
Actually, he did have several hand tools that could be classified as multipurpose tools, including a claw hammer which, if I remember correctly, is cleverly designed to drive nails and remove them. The current bias against multipurpose tools is yet another of todays' myth-conceptions which, like the notion that weight = craftmanship just doesn't hold up under close scrutiny. From an earlier post:
***
Since the introduction of the Shopsmith to the woodworking market in 1948 and its subsequent popularity, there has been a seemingly endless debate over which is better, multipurpose tools or stand-alone, single-purpose tools. Those who advocate multipurpose tools point to their versatility, compact size, and the step-saving advantage of having everything you need to work within an arm’s reach. Those who would rather work with single-purpose tools argue that they require less setup time and a tool designed to do one thing well is preferable to one that does some things better than others.
There are, of course, advantages and disadvantages to both types of tools. And ultimately, the only part of this discussion that means a damn to people who are trying to decide which type of tool to buy is, “Which kind of tool produces the best work?” And the answer to that question is, “Neither.”
Currently, the cultural bias among woodworkers is in favor of stand-alone tools. But it’s only a bias, not a fact. If you know your woodworking history, the cultural scales once tipped in the other direction.
When I first began woodworking, I bought my lumber at an ancient lumberyard the proudly boasted it had been supplying building materials since just after the Civil War. In one area of this yard, there was a defunct millwork shop that had once built the windows and doors for most of the new construction in town. Instead of carpenters buying these commodities in standard sizes from a distant manufacturer as they do now, windows and doors were once made to order locally. The millwork shop employed eight craftsmen, and each craftsman had his own “millworking machine,” consisting of a jointer, planer, table saw, shaper, and mortiser arranged around a central arbor. A craftsman with a door or window to make could do so simply by walking around the machine – he needed nothing else.
These sorts of multipurpose machines were designed around our concept of manufacturing before the turn of the twentieth century. Manufactures had employed assembly lines and standardized parts since the 1820s, but craftsmen were still responsible for the construction of individual items. Often they would walk along the assembly line, progressing from station to station. Machines like the millworking machine that I described were designed to save steps and make this sort of manufacturing process more efficient.
In 1903, Henry Ford added a new wrinkle. Instead of craftsmen moving along a line, the line moved past the craftsmen. Each worker in the Ford automobile plant performed the same manufacturing step over and over. The tools used were single-purpose machines since each craftsman did only one job. There was a great deal of resistance to this kind of manufacturing at first. Nine out of every ten workers that Ford hired quit before they made it through their first year – it wasn’t the kind of craftsmanship they had been trained to perform. Ford, and other manufacturers who adopted his system, continually had to retrain their workforce.
This problem reached a head during World War I, when it became apparent that there would have to be some sort of new education process to train workers for mechanized farms and factories. The Smith-Hughes Act of 1917 set up the first “vocational” education programs. Naturally, these programs focused on the types of tools that the students would likely find in modern manufacturing environments – single-purpose tools. Professional-grade multipurpose and combination tools continued to be made for and used by an older generation of craftsmen well into the 1930s, but they became scarcer and scarcer in factories as younger workers trained in the new vocational system joined the workforce.
Today, almost everyone who has been trained to work with his or her hands professionally has learned on single-purpose tools and consequently there is a cultural bias that embraces them. We prefer the familiar; find rationalizations to convince ourselves that the unfamiliar can’t be as good. This is why “brand loyalty” is so important to marketers of cars, phones, and laundry detergents.
However, tools are unlike all other commodities in one important respect. Tools – and I use that term to also include things like video cameras, paint brushes, and potter’s wheels -- are extensions of our imagination. We use them to create things of our own design that add beauty and utility to our lives and the lives of others. This is craftsmanship – or what craftsmanship ought to be. Your choice of tools is important, but not essential. To prove my point there are thousands of examples of good craftsmanship that have been built with both stand-alone tools and multipurpose tools. And some of the best-crafted pieces of woodworking ever made were created with a few dozen hand tools that the makers could pack into a single trunk. See http://www.metmuseum.org/works_of_ar...=5&StOd=1&vT=2 or http://www.winterthur.org/pdfs/Ameri...isions-web.pdf or http://www.artcomplex.org/shaker.html
Woodworkers and would-be woodworkers spend an enormous amount of energy arguing the merits of stand-alone versus multipurpose tools, and it boils down to much ado about nothing. In the end, your choice depends on your personal preferences and circumstances. And which way you swing is not an issue as long as you choose good, capable tools. I like working with this company because Shopsmith makes an entire system of good tools. Good tools make good craftsmanship easier. But they do not make good craftsmen.
***
While I'm at it, let me dispell yet another myth-conception that I've noticed on this Forum lately, that is, there are few Shopsmiths in professional shops.
When I was writing the Workshop Companion book series for Rodale Press, I was privvy to the surveys done by their marketing department. (They were a study-happy lot. Rodale Marketing wouldn't go to lunch without taking a survey or conducting a focus group.) One of the surveys that I was shown was one on the popularity of tool brands in which Shopsmith was listed along with Delta, Powermatic, Grizzly, etc. The survey was divided up into into various demographic and psychographic segments -- men/women, rich/poor, priests/rabbis, and so on. One of the segments was novices/serious amateurs/professionals. The percentages of most of the big names held relatively steady across the columns, although names like "Cummings" went up because they don't market to amateurs. For a similar reason, names like "Wolfcraft" went down because they don't target professionals. One of the few that defied logic was Shopsmith, whose percentages actually edged up ever-so-slightly slightly from novice to professional.
In discussion with the Rodale folks, they explained it this way. As a woodworker advances from inexperienced to experienced, he discards "novice" and "amateur" tools and acquires tools of higher quality. The exception to this rule is the Shopsmith. Although it is pitched at the novice, it represents a significant investment (which, psychologically, makes it harder to sell) and offers sufficient quality to be useful in a professional shop.
Novices that start out on the Shopsmith learn that there are some things you can do on this tool that can't be done as well (or at all) on stand-alone tools. Furthermore, because the Shopsmith is a convertible tool that takes up little space, it can be kept on hand in a pro shop to do those things for which the craftsman may have only an occassional need. I know of several woodworkers who have kept their Shopsmiths because they occassionally need a lathe. They keep it set up as a drill press or a sanding station -- two functions in which it holds it's own even against the most expensive professional tools -- and convert it to a lathe for those rare jobs in which they need to do some turning. Others chop it up and make it into a "mini" with a single purpose. I personally have built Shopsmith minis for both sanding (belt/disc/drum) and sharpening (strip sander/polishing wheel).
To every rule there are exceptions. Yes, weight offers stability and hysteresis for the absorption of vibration. But so does good engineering. Yes, it makes sense that a dedicated tool may do a specific job better than one that will perform several functions, but that also depends on engineering. And yes, the Shopsmith sells mostly to novices and amateurs. But it's engineering makes it equally valuable to the professional -- if they have the savvy to ignore popular mythologies.
With all good wishes,
Actually, he did have several hand tools that could be classified as multipurpose tools, including a claw hammer which, if I remember correctly, is cleverly designed to drive nails and remove them. The current bias against multipurpose tools is yet another of todays' myth-conceptions which, like the notion that weight = craftmanship just doesn't hold up under close scrutiny. From an earlier post:
***
Since the introduction of the Shopsmith to the woodworking market in 1948 and its subsequent popularity, there has been a seemingly endless debate over which is better, multipurpose tools or stand-alone, single-purpose tools. Those who advocate multipurpose tools point to their versatility, compact size, and the step-saving advantage of having everything you need to work within an arm’s reach. Those who would rather work with single-purpose tools argue that they require less setup time and a tool designed to do one thing well is preferable to one that does some things better than others.
There are, of course, advantages and disadvantages to both types of tools. And ultimately, the only part of this discussion that means a damn to people who are trying to decide which type of tool to buy is, “Which kind of tool produces the best work?” And the answer to that question is, “Neither.”
Currently, the cultural bias among woodworkers is in favor of stand-alone tools. But it’s only a bias, not a fact. If you know your woodworking history, the cultural scales once tipped in the other direction.
When I first began woodworking, I bought my lumber at an ancient lumberyard the proudly boasted it had been supplying building materials since just after the Civil War. In one area of this yard, there was a defunct millwork shop that had once built the windows and doors for most of the new construction in town. Instead of carpenters buying these commodities in standard sizes from a distant manufacturer as they do now, windows and doors were once made to order locally. The millwork shop employed eight craftsmen, and each craftsman had his own “millworking machine,” consisting of a jointer, planer, table saw, shaper, and mortiser arranged around a central arbor. A craftsman with a door or window to make could do so simply by walking around the machine – he needed nothing else.
These sorts of multipurpose machines were designed around our concept of manufacturing before the turn of the twentieth century. Manufactures had employed assembly lines and standardized parts since the 1820s, but craftsmen were still responsible for the construction of individual items. Often they would walk along the assembly line, progressing from station to station. Machines like the millworking machine that I described were designed to save steps and make this sort of manufacturing process more efficient.
In 1903, Henry Ford added a new wrinkle. Instead of craftsmen moving along a line, the line moved past the craftsmen. Each worker in the Ford automobile plant performed the same manufacturing step over and over. The tools used were single-purpose machines since each craftsman did only one job. There was a great deal of resistance to this kind of manufacturing at first. Nine out of every ten workers that Ford hired quit before they made it through their first year – it wasn’t the kind of craftsmanship they had been trained to perform. Ford, and other manufacturers who adopted his system, continually had to retrain their workforce.
This problem reached a head during World War I, when it became apparent that there would have to be some sort of new education process to train workers for mechanized farms and factories. The Smith-Hughes Act of 1917 set up the first “vocational” education programs. Naturally, these programs focused on the types of tools that the students would likely find in modern manufacturing environments – single-purpose tools. Professional-grade multipurpose and combination tools continued to be made for and used by an older generation of craftsmen well into the 1930s, but they became scarcer and scarcer in factories as younger workers trained in the new vocational system joined the workforce.
Today, almost everyone who has been trained to work with his or her hands professionally has learned on single-purpose tools and consequently there is a cultural bias that embraces them. We prefer the familiar; find rationalizations to convince ourselves that the unfamiliar can’t be as good. This is why “brand loyalty” is so important to marketers of cars, phones, and laundry detergents.
However, tools are unlike all other commodities in one important respect. Tools – and I use that term to also include things like video cameras, paint brushes, and potter’s wheels -- are extensions of our imagination. We use them to create things of our own design that add beauty and utility to our lives and the lives of others. This is craftsmanship – or what craftsmanship ought to be. Your choice of tools is important, but not essential. To prove my point there are thousands of examples of good craftsmanship that have been built with both stand-alone tools and multipurpose tools. And some of the best-crafted pieces of woodworking ever made were created with a few dozen hand tools that the makers could pack into a single trunk. See http://www.metmuseum.org/works_of_ar...=5&StOd=1&vT=2 or http://www.winterthur.org/pdfs/Ameri...isions-web.pdf or http://www.artcomplex.org/shaker.html
Woodworkers and would-be woodworkers spend an enormous amount of energy arguing the merits of stand-alone versus multipurpose tools, and it boils down to much ado about nothing. In the end, your choice depends on your personal preferences and circumstances. And which way you swing is not an issue as long as you choose good, capable tools. I like working with this company because Shopsmith makes an entire system of good tools. Good tools make good craftsmanship easier. But they do not make good craftsmen.
***
While I'm at it, let me dispell yet another myth-conception that I've noticed on this Forum lately, that is, there are few Shopsmiths in professional shops.
When I was writing the Workshop Companion book series for Rodale Press, I was privvy to the surveys done by their marketing department. (They were a study-happy lot. Rodale Marketing wouldn't go to lunch without taking a survey or conducting a focus group.) One of the surveys that I was shown was one on the popularity of tool brands in which Shopsmith was listed along with Delta, Powermatic, Grizzly, etc. The survey was divided up into into various demographic and psychographic segments -- men/women, rich/poor, priests/rabbis, and so on. One of the segments was novices/serious amateurs/professionals. The percentages of most of the big names held relatively steady across the columns, although names like "Cummings" went up because they don't market to amateurs. For a similar reason, names like "Wolfcraft" went down because they don't target professionals. One of the few that defied logic was Shopsmith, whose percentages actually edged up ever-so-slightly slightly from novice to professional.
In discussion with the Rodale folks, they explained it this way. As a woodworker advances from inexperienced to experienced, he discards "novice" and "amateur" tools and acquires tools of higher quality. The exception to this rule is the Shopsmith. Although it is pitched at the novice, it represents a significant investment (which, psychologically, makes it harder to sell) and offers sufficient quality to be useful in a professional shop.
Novices that start out on the Shopsmith learn that there are some things you can do on this tool that can't be done as well (or at all) on stand-alone tools. Furthermore, because the Shopsmith is a convertible tool that takes up little space, it can be kept on hand in a pro shop to do those things for which the craftsman may have only an occassional need. I know of several woodworkers who have kept their Shopsmiths because they occassionally need a lathe. They keep it set up as a drill press or a sanding station -- two functions in which it holds it's own even against the most expensive professional tools -- and convert it to a lathe for those rare jobs in which they need to do some turning. Others chop it up and make it into a "mini" with a single purpose. I personally have built Shopsmith minis for both sanding (belt/disc/drum) and sharpening (strip sander/polishing wheel).
To every rule there are exceptions. Yes, weight offers stability and hysteresis for the absorption of vibration. But so does good engineering. Yes, it makes sense that a dedicated tool may do a specific job better than one that will perform several functions, but that also depends on engineering. And yes, the Shopsmith sells mostly to novices and amateurs. But it's engineering makes it equally valuable to the professional -- if they have the savvy to ignore popular mythologies.
With all good wishes,
Nick Engler
http://www.workshopcompanion.com
http://www.workshopcompanion.com
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Ed in Tampa
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 5830
- Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:45 am
- Location: North Tampa Bay area Florida
Amen! Nick and thank you for that. Now how can Shopsmith get that message out to the woodworking audience in a believable and convincing way?
I think only though TV and a program like New Yankee.
I may be wrong but I really believe until that message gets out and is proven true Shopsmith will always be an "oh yea those, but only guys that don't know any better use them. If you want a real machine listen to Norm."
Ed
I think only though TV and a program like New Yankee.
I may be wrong but I really believe until that message gets out and is proven true Shopsmith will always be an "oh yea those, but only guys that don't know any better use them. If you want a real machine listen to Norm."
Ed
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dusty
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 21372
- Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:52 am
- Location: Tucson (Wildcat Country), Arizona
OKAY Nick, you have all of the right words and you repeatedly state them here on this forum. This gives me a warm, fuzzy because it reinforces the decision I made to put a Shopsmith in my shop and to depend on it and its other Shopsmith support items (SPT) to do the work that needs to be done.
But they don't sell machines to the novices unless the novices have an opportunity to hear those words. You have said, again repeatedly, that carrying the word to the novices via demonstrations no longer do the trick.
You have made it clear that magazine ads no longer do the trick. I guess I believe this but why do I read so many woodworking magazines and why do I pay so many charge cards for things I bought after reading the magazine ads.
You have made it clear that Shopsmith is moving to the web to market the Shopsmith and that is good. Now, Shopsmith is on the web. How do you plan to appeal to the novice to buy a Mark V.
I think you have to show each of those novice that happen to tune in (should I say log on) that the Shopsmith does everything that he/she might need it to do in their woodshop. Oh yeah, they need to be convinced that their workshop is large enough for all of that equipment too. And you can't count on them logging in for the next three consecutive sessions to do that. They may never log on again.
They hardly ever see it all at once in the "Sawdust Session Studio". Now you and I and others know that the studio is really small but do they. More importantly, do they know that their slightly larger than one car garaghe is large enough; not unless someone tells them.
But they don't sell machines to the novices unless the novices have an opportunity to hear those words. You have said, again repeatedly, that carrying the word to the novices via demonstrations no longer do the trick.
You have made it clear that magazine ads no longer do the trick. I guess I believe this but why do I read so many woodworking magazines and why do I pay so many charge cards for things I bought after reading the magazine ads.
You have made it clear that Shopsmith is moving to the web to market the Shopsmith and that is good. Now, Shopsmith is on the web. How do you plan to appeal to the novice to buy a Mark V.
I think you have to show each of those novice that happen to tune in (should I say log on) that the Shopsmith does everything that he/she might need it to do in their woodshop. Oh yeah, they need to be convinced that their workshop is large enough for all of that equipment too. And you can't count on them logging in for the next three consecutive sessions to do that. They may never log on again.
They hardly ever see it all at once in the "Sawdust Session Studio". Now you and I and others know that the studio is really small but do they. More importantly, do they know that their slightly larger than one car garaghe is large enough; not unless someone tells them.
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
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Ed in Tampa
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 5830
- Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:45 am
- Location: North Tampa Bay area Florida
[quote="dusty"]OKAY Nick, you have all of the right words and you repeatedly state them here on this forum. This gives me a warm, fuzzy because it reinforces the decision I made to put a Shopsmith in my shop and to depend on it and its other Shopsmith support items (SPT) to do the work that needs to be done.
But they don't sell machines to the novices unless the novices have an opportunity to hear those words. You have said, again repeatedly, that carrying the word to the novices via demonstrations no longer do the trick.
You have made it clear that magazine ads no longer do the trick. I guess I believe this but why do I read so many woodworking magazines and why do I pay so many charge cards for things I bought after reading the magazine ads.
You have made it clear that Shopsmith is moving to the web to market the Shopsmith and that is good. Now, Shopsmith is on the web. How do you plan to appeal to the novice to buy a Mark V.
I think you have to show each of those novice that happen to tune in (should I say log on) that the Shopsmith does everything that he/she might need it to do in their woodshop. Oh yeah, they need to be convinced that their workshop is large enough for all of that equipment too. And you can't count on them logging in for the next three consecutive sessions to do that. They may never log on again.
They hardly ever see it all at once in the "Sawdust Session Studio". Now you and I and others know that the studio is really small but do they. More importantly, do they know that their slightly larger than one car garaghe is large enough]
Dusty
I more or less agree that everyone should know about Shopsmith's space saving qualities. And I think Nick needs to emphasis this more in his Sawdust sessions.
But... and this is a big "but" do you know any young up and comers that let things like space stop them from purchasing anything? If you do, you don't visit garage sales enough. I have seen people fill their garages with tools, exercise equipment, and junk. I have literally seen garages filled with rubbermaid products. I have been to garage sales where they are selling five high dollar mixers and 5 state of the art food processors. If you ask where they came from they will tell you they bought them because they were convinced to be the best cook possible they needed them.
Here in Florida the trend it to build 3 and four car garages and have the cars sit outside. If you look in the garage you can't move for all the junk. And what do they do? Go buy a boat, a 4 wheeler, more exercise equipment, another tool and pile it all in. In fact there is a very successful company called PODS. Private On Demand Storage. They have these movable sheds that they bring to your property, you can keep them there until the neighbors complain then the company comes and get the POD and everything you packed inside and takes it to a warehouse where they keep it until you want it back. I have one neighbor that has a two car garage that never had a car in it, a storage shed that is 12x30 that is filled to the gills with junk and he just filled and had them pick up his second pod in 5 years. He was laughing he doesn't know what is even in the first one. He is thinking of selling it as a grab bag to highest bidder. Space is not a problem to today's generation as far as buying something, now having space to use it is another problem.
Ed
But they don't sell machines to the novices unless the novices have an opportunity to hear those words. You have said, again repeatedly, that carrying the word to the novices via demonstrations no longer do the trick.
You have made it clear that magazine ads no longer do the trick. I guess I believe this but why do I read so many woodworking magazines and why do I pay so many charge cards for things I bought after reading the magazine ads.
You have made it clear that Shopsmith is moving to the web to market the Shopsmith and that is good. Now, Shopsmith is on the web. How do you plan to appeal to the novice to buy a Mark V.
I think you have to show each of those novice that happen to tune in (should I say log on) that the Shopsmith does everything that he/she might need it to do in their woodshop. Oh yeah, they need to be convinced that their workshop is large enough for all of that equipment too. And you can't count on them logging in for the next three consecutive sessions to do that. They may never log on again.
They hardly ever see it all at once in the "Sawdust Session Studio". Now you and I and others know that the studio is really small but do they. More importantly, do they know that their slightly larger than one car garaghe is large enough]
Dusty
I more or less agree that everyone should know about Shopsmith's space saving qualities. And I think Nick needs to emphasis this more in his Sawdust sessions.
But... and this is a big "but" do you know any young up and comers that let things like space stop them from purchasing anything? If you do, you don't visit garage sales enough. I have seen people fill their garages with tools, exercise equipment, and junk. I have literally seen garages filled with rubbermaid products. I have been to garage sales where they are selling five high dollar mixers and 5 state of the art food processors. If you ask where they came from they will tell you they bought them because they were convinced to be the best cook possible they needed them.
Here in Florida the trend it to build 3 and four car garages and have the cars sit outside. If you look in the garage you can't move for all the junk. And what do they do? Go buy a boat, a 4 wheeler, more exercise equipment, another tool and pile it all in. In fact there is a very successful company called PODS. Private On Demand Storage. They have these movable sheds that they bring to your property, you can keep them there until the neighbors complain then the company comes and get the POD and everything you packed inside and takes it to a warehouse where they keep it until you want it back. I have one neighbor that has a two car garage that never had a car in it, a storage shed that is 12x30 that is filled to the gills with junk and he just filled and had them pick up his second pod in 5 years. He was laughing he doesn't know what is even in the first one. He is thinking of selling it as a grab bag to highest bidder. Space is not a problem to today's generation as far as buying something, now having space to use it is another problem.
Ed
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woodburner
- Gold Member
- Posts: 498
- Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:35 am
- Location: Visalia, CA
- Contact:
Boy, you guys totally missed the mark on what I was trying to point out.
Yes, us older gents that have been woodworking for a while now know the quality of the SS and how most of its parts are easy to fix.
What I am trying to point out is that the younger people just looking at getting started in woodworking are going to gravitate towards the newer tools with all the new gizmos inside them. Why? Because that is what salespeople preach when they have a new customer walk in the door.
These tools may look the same on the outside (Delta, etc.), and have for the last fifty or so years, but the techno crap inside is a lot different. Have you ever seen the inside of the "SawStop" brand of tablesaws? I have and it looks like a computer inside, and that is because it is. When some new woodworker see's that, they say "Hey, now that's what I want". And that's what makes them sell.
If that same salesperson showed them a Shopsmith and said "This tool has been the same for the last fifty years, inside and out. It's a simple machine with simple parts." That is not what the younger woodworkers are looking for.
Some of us know the joys of being able to work on older cars without all the fancy electronic stuff needed. Just some wrenches, screwdrivers and sockets is all it took. How many young people are looking for that. Not many that I know of.
I was trying to point out in my previous post that to make sales to a new generation of young woodworkers, you need to have the upgrades or it's a "no sale". The younger folks grew up with all this newer stuff, and they're not going to go backwards fifty years when they can have the newer top-end tools in their new shop.
Take the newer lathes on the market. They all have electronic variable speed, along with the pully's. Most, if not all, companies are ending the manufacturing of mechanical speed changing lathes. I have yet to hear about how bad the newer types work and they are always breaking down. Instead, I hear about how well they work and how did anyone get by without them. How fast many of us forget.
If Shopsmith can show to the new buyer the plus' of their system versus the problems with newer types of tools and why it is superior to the other tools, maybe then they can raise their sales. But doing that is a "hard sale".
If Shopsmith can show that their system is keeping pace with the other manufacturers as far as upgrades and improvements, then it will become an "easy sale".
You've got to remember who you are trying to sell to, and that does not include those of us who have already bought almost everything Shopsmith has to sell already. There is no real profit in that.
Yes, us older gents that have been woodworking for a while now know the quality of the SS and how most of its parts are easy to fix.
What I am trying to point out is that the younger people just looking at getting started in woodworking are going to gravitate towards the newer tools with all the new gizmos inside them. Why? Because that is what salespeople preach when they have a new customer walk in the door.
These tools may look the same on the outside (Delta, etc.), and have for the last fifty or so years, but the techno crap inside is a lot different. Have you ever seen the inside of the "SawStop" brand of tablesaws? I have and it looks like a computer inside, and that is because it is. When some new woodworker see's that, they say "Hey, now that's what I want". And that's what makes them sell.
If that same salesperson showed them a Shopsmith and said "This tool has been the same for the last fifty years, inside and out. It's a simple machine with simple parts." That is not what the younger woodworkers are looking for.
Some of us know the joys of being able to work on older cars without all the fancy electronic stuff needed. Just some wrenches, screwdrivers and sockets is all it took. How many young people are looking for that. Not many that I know of.
I was trying to point out in my previous post that to make sales to a new generation of young woodworkers, you need to have the upgrades or it's a "no sale". The younger folks grew up with all this newer stuff, and they're not going to go backwards fifty years when they can have the newer top-end tools in their new shop.
Take the newer lathes on the market. They all have electronic variable speed, along with the pully's. Most, if not all, companies are ending the manufacturing of mechanical speed changing lathes. I have yet to hear about how bad the newer types work and they are always breaking down. Instead, I hear about how well they work and how did anyone get by without them. How fast many of us forget.
If Shopsmith can show to the new buyer the plus' of their system versus the problems with newer types of tools and why it is superior to the other tools, maybe then they can raise their sales. But doing that is a "hard sale".
If Shopsmith can show that their system is keeping pace with the other manufacturers as far as upgrades and improvements, then it will become an "easy sale".
You've got to remember who you are trying to sell to, and that does not include those of us who have already bought almost everything Shopsmith has to sell already. There is no real profit in that.
Sawdust & Shavings,
Woodburner:o
Woodburner:o
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cincinnati
- Platinum Member
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- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:40 pm
- Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
All the "New Gizmo's"?woodburner wrote:Boy, you guys totally missed the mark on what I was trying to point out.
Yes, us older gents that have been woodworking for a while now know the quality of the SS and how most of its parts are easy to fix.
What I am trying to point out is that the younger people just looking at getting started in woodworking are going to gravitate towards the newer tools with all the new gizmos inside them. Why? Because that is what salespeople preach when they have a new customer walk in the door.
These tools may look the same on the outside (Delta, etc.), and have for the last fifty or so years, but the techno crap inside is a lot different. Have you ever seen the inside of the "SawStop" brand of tablesaws? I have and it looks like a computer inside, and that is because it is. When some new woodworker see's that, they say "Hey, now that's what I want". And that's what makes them sell.
If that same salesperson showed them a Shopsmith and said "This tool has been the same for the last fifty years, inside and out. It's a simple machine with simple parts." That is not what the younger woodworkers are looking for.
Some of us know the joys of being able to work on older cars without all the fancy electronic stuff needed. Just some wrenches, screwdrivers and sockets is all it took. How many young people are looking for that. Not many that I know of.
I was trying to point out in my previous post that to make sales to a new generation of young woodworkers, you need to have the upgrades or it's a "no sale". The younger folks grew up with all this newer stuff, and they're not going to go backwards fifty years when they can have the newer top-end tools in their new shop.
Take the newer lathes on the market. They all have electronic variable speed, along with the pully's. Most, if not all, companies are ending the manufacturing of mechanical speed changing lathes. I have yet to hear about how bad the newer types work and they are always breaking down. Instead, I hear about how well they work and how did anyone get by without them. How fast many of us forget.
If Shopsmith can show to the new buyer the plus' of their system versus the problems with newer types of tools and why it is superior to the other tools, maybe then they can raise their sales. But doing that is a "hard sale".
If Shopsmith can show that their system is keeping pace with the other manufacturers as far as upgrades and improvements, then it will become an "easy sale".
You've got to remember who you are trying to sell to, and that does not include those of us who have already bought almost everything Shopsmith has to sell already. There is no real profit in that.
Like the new table saws that Grizzly, Powermatic, and Delta that have a riving knife. Or how about the new expensive drill presses that have a variable speed. The big name tool manufactures are telling everyone how great all this new stuff is. But us Shopsmith owners are thinking. "where in the H*** have they been." Shopsmith has been there for well over 30 years.
How many freestanding table saw owners have variable speed??? Guess that will be new to them in a few years.
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woodburner
- Gold Member
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- Location: Visalia, CA
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Compared to what most tool manufacturers used to produce, yes, they have added "new gizmos". Shopsmith may have had variable speed for a long time now, but because the other companies are now catching up, they use that as a selling point for their newer model tools.
"New" equals "Sales" for most companies.
Also, why did you feel the need to quote my entire posting? Just the "new gizmo" part would have been good enough. No need to repeat everything I just said in a new post.
"New" equals "Sales" for most companies.
Also, why did you feel the need to quote my entire posting? Just the "new gizmo" part would have been good enough. No need to repeat everything I just said in a new post.
Sawdust & Shavings,
Woodburner:o
Woodburner:o
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dusty
- Platinum Member
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- Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:52 am
- Location: Tucson (Wildcat Country), Arizona
I guess you are saying that Shopsmith entertains hundreds of potentially new customers on a regular basis but sells to very few of them because Shopsmith has no new guizmos to offer.
If that is the case, then Shopsmith has a simple solution. Roll out a few new guizmos. To do that - Invest a mil or two in research and development, employ a marketing scheme to highlight these guizmos and sell the world a "new 5in1 tool" that occupies no more space than a bicycle.
Maybe but I don't think so. The small handful of young people that pass through my shop from time to time don't come there to see the laser lines, variable speed motors or fancy new planer blades. They come to get boards cut for their book shelves, holes drilled to run mp3 cables through, legs cut to get their mattress up off the floor and plywood cut down to size for closet shelves.
My grandson, last year, built the Christmas presents he gave to his mother, brother-in-law and sisters. You probably won't be able to sell him one because he thinks he already has mine but he doesn't know that three other young people think they do too. There is a sale there somewhere.
Incidently, none of them have a space any larger than a garage in which to put this shop.
If that is the case, then Shopsmith has a simple solution. Roll out a few new guizmos. To do that - Invest a mil or two in research and development, employ a marketing scheme to highlight these guizmos and sell the world a "new 5in1 tool" that occupies no more space than a bicycle.
Maybe but I don't think so. The small handful of young people that pass through my shop from time to time don't come there to see the laser lines, variable speed motors or fancy new planer blades. They come to get boards cut for their book shelves, holes drilled to run mp3 cables through, legs cut to get their mattress up off the floor and plywood cut down to size for closet shelves.
My grandson, last year, built the Christmas presents he gave to his mother, brother-in-law and sisters. You probably won't be able to sell him one because he thinks he already has mine but he doesn't know that three other young people think they do too. There is a sale there somewhere.
Incidently, none of them have a space any larger than a garage in which to put this shop.
"Making Sawdust Safely"
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.
Dusty
Sent from my Dell XPS using Firefox.