Shopsmith Forums

claimdude wrote:Well said John! I read the "throw away" comment and thought, hmmm, I guess the 100s of 1000s Ford crew cab trucks that retail for north of $50,000 are throw away electronics, etc, etc? Really? I smile every time I turn my PowerPro on derive tremendous enjoyment using it....

Jack

I was going to state some of those kinds of examples but why? If someone feels that way there is no changing their mind. He did after all post his comment with a computer. Is that throw away "HOME" electronics?

I sort of agree about one thing said,
I know how circuit boards can be a thorn to the average person ,,, circuit boards are nice in some situations,,,,,,but the cost of tools needed to complete a repair properly in the field,,,,, far exceed the time and cost involved to the a average person just wanting to sand cut drill or turn a old piece of wood into a birthday gift ,,,when they could use a light bulb a screw driver and a wrench..

As HAM radio operator I remember going from tube type radios to todays stuff that no one can repair, when a .30 cnt part ruins a 250.00 board it just seems the end does not justify the means..

Not to mention ,,proper testing of the eq with out damage to other parts by the average person is nearly impossible.

How many average people can repair a board or find oput why it failed ?

All this sort of effects the mind set of the average investor who just wants some thing simple.

JMO

Is that throw away "HOME" electronics?[/quote]


==

Yes


like the sign says the new'r stuff is out before you can get home from the store .

jsburger wrote:

EliWalton wrote:

Hobbyman2 wrote:I to would like to see SS around in a few years .

I cant imagine these circuit boards being cheap.

Hard to imagine they would want a customer to perform warranty work,

YES! My dad had one of the first Mark V's back in the mid-50's and I started woodworking around it. I bought my current Mark V (500) in 1976. Of course, we all want Shopsmith to be around for our grandkids! But ownership changes, and we appear be seeing some degradation in customer service already...

Thankfully, there are many key parts for older machines available from private and third parties. As an example, the replacement/upgrade two-bearing quill is a very long lead item from SS, but readily available (better quality, BTW) from other sources.

IMHO, the SS PowerPro electronics is more at home in a throw-away, expendable appliance than a durable woodworking machine... Electronics in my refrigerator, stove and ice machine seem to fail after just a few years... Unlike the past, I think we will all need to become capable of finding parts and servicing our own Shopsmiths, especially the electronics, if we want them to be around for decades, as in the past... Just sayin'

73

Ownership changes??? The Folkerth family has owned SS since 1971 when john bought the company which had been defunct since 1965. Almost all of the improvements in the SS MK V are a result of the Folkerth family.

Please tell us what KEY parts are available from private/third parties that are not original used parts manufactured by SS? Who makes a two bearing quill besides SS? The reason there are almost no after market parts for the SS is because the SS parts with proper care last almost for ever.

Why do you think all the SS clones failed? BTW, being cloned is the ultimate compliment. They failed because of inferior manufacturing quality and most importantly no customer support. SS excels in both those categories.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but if you think the Power Pro is in the class of throw away home electronics, my opinion is you are wrong. SS is not where it is today by selling junk. If you don't want a Power Pro then buy a MK V and stick with the Reevs drive. There is nothing wrong with it and you can still buy a new one and buy new parts.

Wow, I can assure that no one has more of an emotional attachment to Shopsmith -- I believe what Goldschmidt invented is one of the most inspired machines ever created -- it should be in the Smithsonian. That said, there is no need to ignore its shortcomings. The spindle size and quill bearings are not adequate for most functions, especially for a lathe. Shopsmith's two-bearing quill uses a split shaft and places the bearings relatively close together. I have replaced the bearings in Shopsmith's version, but also bought a version from a 3rd party with one-piece shaft and wider bearing placement. the runout is significantly improved, but still lacking. BTW, Shopsmith's lead time on the quill is up and down. The third party version shipped immediately.

The PowerPro electronics are installed in a poor location. The inside of the casting gets hot and cooling air in unfiltered, not a good environment for electronics that are not totally enclosed or potted. The control panel and user interface is... [you fill in the blank].

Regarding ownership, John Folkerth was a true entrepreneur. I recall the excitement when it went public. And then the bankruptcy. And now RLF Brands - an LLC. So yes, ownership has changed. And I understand from some online posts that Nick Engler and other loyal key people were not treated well.

I hope that Shopsmith is around for decades to come, and that the PowerPro electronics never fail, and that the board is composed of standard components and no "unobtainium."

Again, I share your passion, but facts are facts.

Ely

EliWalton wrote: . . .

Regarding ownership, John Folkerth was a true entrepreneur. I recall the excitement when it went public. And then the bankruptcy. And now RLF Brands - an LLC. So yes, ownership has changed. And I understand from some online posts that Nick Engler and other loyal key people were not treated well.

. . .

Ely

Father to son through death then bankruptcy courts is NOT IMHO an 'ownership change'.

JPG wrote:

EliWalton wrote: . . .

Regarding ownership, John Folkerth was a true entrepreneur. I recall the excitement when it went public. And then the bankruptcy. And now RLF Brands - an LLC. So yes, ownership has changed. And I understand from some online posts that Nick Engler and other loyal key people were not treated well.

. . .

Ely

Father to son through death then bankruptcy courts is NOT IMHO an 'ownership change'.

Father son. Two very different people. One built a business the other not so much so. One had a goal of an entrepreneur the other with the thought process of a business school graduate. Incidentally it is that mentality that is taking most American businesses down the tubes. Makes today's bottom line look good and hope you have enough money so you don't have worry about tomorrow.

And no doubt the cause/source of recent changes in decades old previous policy. Unfortunately those changes are negating the unique long term strength that made the SS community what it was.

I fear the future resulting from those changes will make independent survival more difficult.

Ed in Tampa wrote:

JPG wrote:

EliWalton wrote: . . .

Regarding ownership, John Folkerth was a true entrepreneur. I recall the excitement when it went public. And then the bankruptcy. And now RLF Brands - an LLC. So yes, ownership has changed. And I understand from some online posts that Nick Engler and other loyal key people were not treated well.

. . .

Ely

Father to son through death then bankruptcy courts is NOT IMHO an 'ownership change'.

Father son. Two very different people. One built a business the other not so much so. One had a goal of an entrepreneur the other with the thought process of a business school graduate. Incidentally it is that mentality that is taking most American businesses down the tubes. Makes today's bottom line look good and hope you have enough money so you don't have worry about tomorrow.

I am uncertain as too which mentality you speak but what is taking most businesses down the tubes is poor entry level planning and lack of insight into the business that they pursue. We have become a service oriented society. Just go out on the street and look around you. How many fast food places and car washes do you see. Do you see a place that fixes appliances or repairs furniture. I doubt it.

Go to your local high school and check out the curriculum. Do you find any with an industrial arts program; plumbing, electrical, metal working, automotive, drafting, wood working, etc.

This coupled with a demand for "top dollar upon entry into a profession or trade" doesn't help the economy or the job market. Small businesses cannot afford to grow.

What is the employment outlook, in your neck of the woods, for this years college graduates? I suspect pretty bleak. And what do they (the resent graduate) want to do? Go to Grad School.

dusty wrote:

Ed in Tampa wrote:

JPG wrote:
Father to son through death then bankruptcy courts is NOT IMHO an 'ownership change'.

Father son. Two very different people. One built a business the other not so much so. One had a goal of an entrepreneur the other with the thought process of a business school graduate. Incidentally it is that mentality that is taking most American businesses down the tubes. Makes today's bottom line look good and hope you have enough money so you don't have worry about tomorrow.

I am uncertain as too which mentality you speak but what is taking most businesses down the tubes is poor entry level planning and lack of insight into the business that they pursue. We have become a service oriented society. Just go out on the street and look around you. How many fast food places and car washes do you see. Do you see a place that fixes appliances or repairs furniture. I doubt it.

Go to your local high school and check out the curriculum. Do you find any with an industrial arts program; plumbing, electrical, metal working, automotive, drafting, wood working, etc.

This coupled with a demand for "top dollar upon entry into a profession or trade" doesn't help the economy or the job market. Small businesses cannot afford to grow.

What is the employment outlook, in your neck of the woods, for this years college graduates? I suspect pretty bleak. And what do they (the resent graduate) want to do? Go to Grad School.

College graduation of today is the high school graduation of the 80's, today you need a post graduate degree.
But that problem comes from society's thinking, anyone that does physical labor is viewed as having a undesirable job. So everyone goes to college but learn no trade so they become educated idiots that to get ahead must get a post graduate degree.

interestingly many of our youth are figuring this out and aren't going to college. They are trying to figure out how to get by without having a job. Sadly work seems like a distant idea to many.

Second problem is the grad school graduate are running things. The only thing they know is today's bottom line. They don't dream of a long successful careers, they dream of making it big and retiring. Their decisions reflect this thinking they will sacrifice long loyal customers and employees to grab a quick buck. To increase profit they layoff experienced workers so their bottom line soars. To increase profit they often sacrifice customers service to cut costs.
Their thinking is to increase profit, charge more rather than sell more which would require them to make more., which to them sounds like too much effort.

Society's values have shifted, today people do not desire to be known as good workers, they want to be known by how much money they have. Today people do not esteem a craftsman they only esteem fame and fortune.

America was built by people that understood hard work and character would built this country today it is ran by people that don't want to work and yet they want to be rich and unfortunately many will sacrifice almost anything to achieve that.

You have both detailed the 'mentality' of which I spoke. Myopic horizon at best. Tomorrow will be someone else's problem. Today we cannot get repair parts . . . . .