The Missing Mark 5 Serial Numbers

[chapmanruss]

Doing one for the Mark VII would be difficult. I have not seen any information on its production except the Shopsmith Sales History document. All I know is they were produced from the 1963-1964 fiscal year to the 1968-1969 fiscal year. 10,671 units were sold with sales decreasing each year of production. I don't know the starting or ending serial numbers so making even a guesstimate chart is not possible. Below are the only Mark VII serial numbers I now know of.

402744
405725 Steve Ayres Mark VII
406638
407630
410051 Steve Ayres Mark VII

That is a range of 7307 units leaving 3364 units sold on either side of these numbers. This does not account for any units made and not sold that were demo units, damage etc.

If we can get numbers farther apart and closer to the 10,671 units sold we can than estimate when they were made. This, of course, is provided there were no gaps in the serial numbers. Even then the best that could be done is which serial numbers were made in what Fiscal Year unless Everett has more information in the documents he received from Shopsmith.

So while we are on the subject of production dates the Mark 2 would be even more difficult to do a chart on. The most I can tell you is the serial number of the one I have which is a "Greenie" and that the Mark 2 was introduced in December of 1957. Later they were painted gray and I have not seen a "Goldie" version. The Mark 2 was not included in the Shopsmith Sales History document.

[jsburger]

Doing one for the Mark VII would be difficult. I have not seen any information on its production except the Shopsmith Sales History document. All I know is they were produced from the 1963-1964 fiscal year to the 1968-1969 fiscal year. 10,671 units were sold with sales decreasing each year of production. I don't know the starting or ending serial numbers so making even a guesstimate chart is not possible. Below are the only Mark VII serial numbers I now know of.

402744
405725 Steve Ayres Mark VII
406638
407630
410051 Steve Ayres Mark VII

That is a range of 7307 units leaving 3364 units sold on either side of these numbers. This does not account for any units made and not sold that were demo units, damage etc.

If we can get numbers farther apart and closer to the 10,671 units sold we can than estimate when they were made. This, of course, is provided there were no gaps in the serial numbers. Even then the best that could be done is which serial numbers were made in what Fiscal Year unless Everett has more information in the documents he received from Shopsmith.

So while we are on the subject of production dates the Mark 2 would be even more difficult to do a chart on. The most I can tell you is the serial number of the one I have which is a "Greenie" and that the Mark 2 was introduced in December of 1957. Later they were painted gray and I have not seen a "Goldie" version. The Mark 2 was not included in the Shopsmith Sales History document.

Is that possibly because SS never actually sold them? They were made for Montgomery Ward and only sold by them.

[rpd]

Doing one for the Mark VII would be difficult. I have not seen any information on its production except the Shopsmith Sales History document. All I know is they were produced from the 1963-1964 fiscal year to the 1968-1969 fiscal year. 10,671 units were sold with sales decreasing each year of production. I don't know the starting or ending serial numbers so making even a guesstimate chart is not possible. Below are the only Mark VII serial numbers I now know of.

402744
405725 Steve Ayres Mark VII
406638
407630
410051 Steve Ayres Mark VII

That is a range of 7307 units leaving 3364 units sold on either side of these numbers. This does not account for any units made and not sold that were demo units, damage etc.

If we can get numbers farther apart and closer to the 10,671 units sold we can than estimate when they were made. This, of course, is provided there were no gaps in the serial numbers. Even then the best that could be done is which serial numbers were made in what Fiscal Year unless Everett has more information in the documents he received from Shopsmith.

So while we are on the subject of production dates the Mark 2 would be even more difficult to do a chart on. The most I can tell you is the serial number of the one I have which is a "Greenie" and that the Mark 2 was introduced in December of 1957. Later they were painted gray and I have not seen a "Goldie" version. The Mark 2 was not included in the Shopsmith Sales History document.

Is that possibly because SS never actually sold them? They were made for Montgomery Ward and only sold by them.

John, I believe you are referring to the Mark II's, The units under discussion are the Mark VII's made by Magna American.

[jsburger]

Doing one for the Mark VII would be difficult. I have not seen any information on its production except the Shopsmith Sales History document. All I know is they were produced from the 1963-1964 fiscal year to the 1968-1969 fiscal year. 10,671 units were sold with sales decreasing each year of production. I don't know the starting or ending serial numbers so making even a guesstimate chart is not possible. Below are the only Mark VII serial numbers I now know of.

402744
405725 Steve Ayres Mark VII
406638
407630
410051 Steve Ayres Mark VII

That is a range of 7307 units leaving 3364 units sold on either side of these numbers. This does not account for any units made and not sold that were demo units, damage etc.

If we can get numbers farther apart and closer to the 10,671 units sold we can than estimate when they were made. This, of course, is provided there were no gaps in the serial numbers. Even then the best that could be done is which serial numbers were made in what Fiscal Year unless Everett has more information in the documents he received from Shopsmith.

So while we are on the subject of production dates the Mark 2 would be even more difficult to do a chart on. The most I can tell you is the serial number of the one I have which is a "Greenie" and that the Mark 2 was introduced in December of 1957. Later they were painted gray and I have not seen a "Goldie" version. The Mark 2 was not included in the Shopsmith Sales History document.

Is that possibly because SS never actually sold them? They were made for Montgomery Ward and only sold by them.

John, I believe you are referring to the Mark II's, The units under discussion are the Mark VII's made by Magna American.

Yes, I understand that. Russ made a statement about the MK 2 that I highlighted that it is not included in the SS sales history. That is what I am asking about. We know that SS sold MK VII's. My question is that since there is no SS history of sales for the MK 2 is that because SS never actually sold the MK 2 directly. It was only sold by Montgomery Ward.

[JPG]

"SS" is vague.

Mark VII's were sold by Magna American Inc. only.

Mark 5's were sold by Magna Engineering(?), Magna Tools Inc.(?) Yuba Power Products, Magna American Inc. and finally by Shopsmith Inc..

Mark 2's were likely made by Magna Tools Inc(?) and Yuba Power Tools since the timing was 'then'.

[rpd]

Yes, I understand that. Russ made a statement about the MK 2 that I highlighted that it is not included in the SS sales history. That is what I am asking about. We know that SS sold MK VII's. My question is that since there is no SS history of sales for the MK 2 is that because SS never actually sold the MK 2 directly. It was only sold by Montgomery Ward.

Ahh, right you are, my error.

[JPG]

"SS sales history."

I assume reference to ss.com site.

Well 'Mark 5' is also missing.

I do not understand why.

SS Inc. did make Mark 5's.

[chapmanruss]

JPG,
You are keeping us on track again. It is interesting that the "Shopsmith Sales History" doc from the business plan for the forming of Shopsmith Inc. has them as Mark V not Mark 5. Although the vent plate markings didn't change until early 1980 from Mark 5 to Mark V the two were used interchangeably on advertising and other printed materials from pretty much the beginning of Shopsmith Inc.

John,
I do not know why the Mark 2 was not included in the sales history. Remember the other Shopsmith tools, Mark 5, Mark VII and accessories were also sold by retailers but I do not believe factory direct. JPG previously indicated his Mark 5 Goldie came from Montgomery Wards. Although the Mark 2 was designed at Montgomery Wards request they were not the lone seller. I have information that Battles Hardware in LA (sorry if I spelled that wrong) also sold the Mark 2 at some point.

Also note that is was Mark 2 not Mark II. I only mentioned the Mark 2 in my last post since we were talking about lost production dates in case anyone was wondering when their Mark 2 was made.

The last interesting item missing from the sales history is the 1947-1948 and 1948-1949 fiscal year sales of the Model 10E.

[Nyth63]

Doing one for the Mark VII would be difficult. I have not seen any information on its production except the Shopsmith Sales History document. All I know is they were produced from the 1963-1964 fiscal year to the 1968-1969 fiscal year. 10,671 units were sold with sales decreasing each year of production. I don't know the starting or ending serial numbers so making even a guesstimate chart is not possible. Below are the only Mark VII serial numbers I now know of.

402744
405725 Steve Ayres Mark VII
406638
407630
410051 Steve Ayres Mark VII

That is a range of 7307 units leaving 3364 units sold on either side of these numbers. This does not account for any units made and not sold that were demo units, damage etc.

If we can get numbers farther apart and closer to the 10,671 units sold we can than estimate when they were made. This, of course, is provided there were no gaps in the serial numbers. Even then the best that could be done is which serial numbers were made in what Fiscal Year unless Everett has more information in the documents he received from Shopsmith.

Here is another data point for you. User robinson46176 states that he has a Mark VII serial number 400078.

https://www.shopsmith.com/ss_forum/view ... ial#p57269

That gives a total spread of 9974 units. This is only 698 units short of the total of 10,671. Also, considering that the estimated last serial number for the Mark 5 is 382425, that number is 17,653 short of 400078. This seems to me to mean that they probably skipped a good size block of numbers. I am wondering if perhaps the first serial number for the Mark VII was either 400000 or 400001. This would also make sense if they were producing both models at the same time for a short period so as to not duplicate or confuse serial numbers on the two models. This would put the last number at 410671 or 410672.

I could not find any reference anywhere about what months their fiscal year started, and it seems that there was some overlap in sales that Everett noted in the chart for the Mark 5 and Mark VII. So, just for the sake of making a list, If production started in about January, 1964, We end up with a calendar year production list like this:

1/1/1964 400001
1/1/1965 403077
1/1/1966 405895
1/1/1967 408609
1/1/1968 409965
1/1/1969 410482
1/1/1970 410672

Of course, this in based on SALES, not production so it is likely that the last couple of fiscal years of sales were from inventory produced up to a couple of years earlier as I believe that I have seen references to production ending in 1968. Considering how low sales were in the last two lines in the chart, it may not be unreasonable to just lump those in with the third line from the bottom for production.

Comments please.

P.S. The serial number on my Mark VII is 402228, which is lower than the lowest number that chapmanruss had in his list.

.

[chapmanruss]

With the addition of Kenn's information and thanks for noting farmers Mark VII's, we are closer to having a more accurate list of Serial Numbers to be able to compare to the sales information to estimate the Production Dates. Below are the Mark VII serial numbers that I now know of.

400078 farmers
402228 Nyth63 (Kenn)
402744
405725 Steve Ayres
406638
407439
407630 Don T (sold)
407887 farmers
410051 Steve Ayres

As Kenn points out that is now a range of 9973 units leaving only 698 units sold on either side of these numbers. This does not account for any units made and not sold that were demo units, damage etc. It would be helpful to get additional Serial Numbers especially if the purchase date is known to make a more accurate list.

It may be reasonable to assume that the Mark VII Serial Numbers started at 400001 and ended around 410671. As Kenn noted I too have not found when their fiscal year began. As of now Kenn's list is a start at showing when the Mark VII's were made. Keep in mind that the Sales Chart shows them first sold during the 1963-1964 Fiscal Year with 3076 units sold and the most in a Fiscal Year. They ended in the 1968-1969 Fiscal Year with only 190 units sold. Production may have started in the late 1962-1963 Fiscal Year and I beleive it ended by December 1968. We do not know the introduction date for the Mark VII. It's sales overtook the sales of the Mark 5 in it's first year and put the Mark 5 out of production in it's second year. It may be important to note that, as per an earlier discussion, Mark VII's may have been made as orders came in and not for projected sales. In other words you could not go to Montgomery Ward to buy it and take it home that day. Instead you had to order it and wait for it to be delivered. With that the actual "sale" date would be before the production date.